Karishma  Agarwal: Hello and welcome to the CIO today podcast. I’m Karishma and today we’re joined by doctor Max, a professor and educator sharing insights on teaching leadership and staying relevant in today’s evolving academic world. Let’s dive in. Hi doctor Max, I hope you’re doing well. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Max Caruso: My absolute pleasure and I’m looking forward to our conversation.

Karishma  Agarwal: Great. Welcome. Your writings on ancient residence and transcultural synthesis are not just personal reflections. They feel like a new lens for understanding identity, leadership, and learning in a globalized world. So let’s dive right in okay.

Dr. Max Caruso: Thank you.

Karishma  Agarwal: You describe standing on a hill in Rome and feeling a profound sense of loss, a splinter of Rome in your soul. Later in Shanghai, you found the splinter absorbed into Chinese civilization. Can you please share what that moment of absorption felt like? And how did it shift your understanding of who you are and where you belong?

Dr. Max Caruso: Thank you so much for that question. I’ll pinch you to pronounce in Italian in Rome. Yes. It was. It really was. It really was a resonant moment. Having been back to Rome for the first time in 40 years at the time. It was my first time back, so it was a very important moment for me. It was a moment of absorption, and in many ways it was a dramatic event, but more importantly, it was a quiet deepening, I think, of of recognition. I remember years later, then walking through your garden here in Shanghai, which is a very famous place, and feeling the same gathering of of power of time which I had felt that day on, on you know, that intricate social choreography, those unspoken rules of respect and obligation. You know, the way that food is served as a sacrament, both here in, in, in Shanghai and, and in Italy, there are, you know, a sacrament of connection rather than mere fuel. So all of, all of it resonated with, with the frequency. And this frequency is something that I recognize that I carried since childhood. So what what shifted for me that day in particular was my understanding of belonging. I realized, I think, that I didn’t need to return to Rome to be whole, which is it was a feeling that I had for so many, many years, but in fact, that I could belong anywhere. That hum, you know, with that same ancient frequency, the ancient frequencies of both ancient Rome, Rome, Italy, ancient China, China, Shanghai anywhere that I guess understood history not as a record, but as a living soil. And isn’t that important, right? A living soil being grounded. So the splinter didn’t disappear. It found its echo. I guess you could say a living bridge rather than a displaced fragment.

Karishma  Agarwal: That is great. That is great. It’s such a fresh perspective, I would say. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. So Doctor Maxie also writes that this discovery fueled your vision as an educational leader. So how exactly did that happen? How exactly did Ancient Resonance change the way you lead a school, design a curriculum, or coach a teacher, you know? So can you please give us at least one concrete example from Wiz where this principle came to life?

Dr. Max Caruso: Indeed. And it took a long time, I guess, for me to, to achieve these realizations. You know, one lives a lifetime, and in living a lifetime, one has many experiences that sometimes culminate into understanding. And I think I’m one of the fortunate, maybe few who has achieved that understanding of self. So in terms of leadership and in terms of educational leadership, I guess he transformed many things, you know, from hiring practices to meeting parents. Our co-principal model at was Worcester United International School. It’s it’s not just an organizational structure. It’s a daily enactment of trans cultural dialogue. And it’s really interesting because we are a Chinese bilingual international school, but the Chinese bilingual is the emphasis. And my co-principal he and I have an interesting communication regime in that my Chinese is relatively limited as his as is his English. So we have this we have this lovely dance of understanding communication, but we communicate extremely well. And that concept of trans cultural dialogue becomes even more important. So when we sit down to make decisions, we’re not just balancing Eastern and Western perspectives. And that’s important. We’re deliberately creating what I call that third space point that I came to in my second writings with the CIO today. So what is that? It’s a generative design where something new emerges from the confluence, and that’s what’s important, isn’t it? You know, within the context that I live in, if we’re talking about East meeting west, it’s not just two cultures coming together and stopping as they meet.

Dr. Max Caruso: It’s it’s about creating that third space. So if you take, for example, within our school, as a Chinese bilingual international school, the idea of transcultural ethics, not necessarily taught, but within the broader and to some extent even the hidden curriculum. You know, we don’t necessarily teach Western ethics and or Chinese values as separate units. We present students with real dilemmas. So, for example in a business scenario involving conflicting concepts of loyalty and transparency, you know, students don’t choose between frameworks. They’re guided to synthesize. And this is important, synthesizing that third position that honors both traditions while addressing what is a contemporary reality. You know, our children are mainly Chinese nationals within our school. And they are Chinese national students who will eventually move to overseas universities. You know, top five, top ten, top 20. They’re exceptional students. So this idea of transcultural ethics and synthesis of such and creating the third position is really important for them as I move forward. So in that way we’re not preparing them to navigate between cultures. We’re empowering them to create from within the meeting of the cultures. And I think that’s what’s really important. Karishma.

Karishma  Agarwal: Wow. So I can see that, you know, stepping into the executive coaching. That’s great. So as you mentioned just now, you talk about, you know, third space where different cultural frameworks meet to generate something new. What I’m interested in knowing is that how do you, as a coach, create that third space clients who may be navigating cross-cultural tensions, identity conflicts, or leadership in this global scenario and organizations?

Dr. Max Caruso: It’s a really interesting question. And you know, one that, as you say, you know, well and truly moving into this coaching space is a really important one, because I am situated here in Shanghai and in China. I’m outreaching. I’m outreaching to the world, literally. So my clients come from, you know, either mainland China itself or from other countries in Europe in the West. So this idea is very important. It’s been a really deep realization for me in regards to how this new coaching aspect of what I do can really resonate with and utilize this experiences that I’ve had. So coaching the third space begins with and I’ve thought really deeply about this, and it sounds like it sounds like a contrasting idea, but it’s about making the invisible visible. It’s about thinking about the fact that, you know, many leaders in global roles operate on autopilot. And that’s why I think my work is so, so important. I don’t just coach educators. I coach leaders in industry as well. My over 40 years in in education and the many experiences that I’ve had in executive leadership allow me to do that. So asking them to enact cultural script that they’re not even aware of. So having them to understand this idea that they’re actually scripted to do things that they’re not aware of. So what I tend to do is I try and help clients to surface their habitus. Habitus is a term that was created by the great social, cultural innovator Pierre Bourdieu. And it’s about these deeply ingrained dispositions that we all have. So asking them to surface their own habitus, have an understanding of, of of of their place and where they come from.

Dr. Max Caruso: So, for example, I might ask, you know, when, when that European team challenge your authority, what visceral reaction did you feel in your body? So this might be a Chinese client that I might be speaking with. So what Chinese principle might interpret that same situation differently. So getting them to delve deeply within their own habitus. So therefore we create this psychological container where both interpretations can exist without judgment. So both interpretations can exist. It’s not an either or. And from there we co-create that third perspective or that third space. So it’s not a compromise. And this is where the idea of synthesis. Come in comes in. It’s not a synthesis that contains wisdom from both. So the goal here isn’t to eliminate tension but to transform it from a source of conflict, I guess, into a creative fuel. So conflict to create to creation and conflict can be a positive thing that we do. So I become what I call a curator of cognitive encounters. Now, how do you like that? I thought about that for a long time. A curator of cognitive encounters. So designing the conditions where new leadership identities can emerge from that friction. And isn’t that what coaching is all about? It’s about allowing people to really delve into self the type of coaching that I engage in really times deliberate silence so that the person that I’m working with can really think deeply about that which they’re trying to achieve. Karishma.

Karishma  Agarwal: Wow. That’s lovely. Something very gentle about this perspective. So also now moving on to this, many leaders are familiar with cultural intelligence, the skill to adapt across culture as you have been speaking since the beginning. So your idea of cultural synthesis, you know, seems to go beyond adaptation because you are also inculcating Chinese principles that you just mentioned. As I’m hearing, it’s about creating something new from the confluence. Can you distinguish between the two, and why is this synthesis a necessary next step for today’s global leaders?

Dr. Max Caruso: Absolutely. And it’s again, a very important question. And I guess moving into this space, you know, I myself have had a lot of deep thinking. And in that deep thinking, you know, there are people that are people who are very close to me with whom I also have these conversations. And I’m very fortunate in that I am a son in law of China. My beautiful wife is Shanghainese, and she obviously understands Chinese culture very well. And I have these conversations with her. And in answering these questions or thinking deeply about this question, she actually holds a mirror to my own face so that I can have that understanding. And her perspective is also very important. So I guess in answering your question, if cultural intelligence is is code switching mastery, then knowing which cultural script or narrative to use and when is going to be important. And that’s what I that’s what I was talking about a moment ago. You know, I needed to come to that understanding myself. So therefore it becomes transactional to some extent. And transcultural synthesis in many ways is transformational and strategic. Now that’s going to look different for various people. But I guess if CQ helps you to play by the rules of different games, for example, then synthesis creates a new game idea of synthesis things coming together, and it creates its own rules.

Dr. Max Caruso: So in a world as complex as today and becoming ever more complex than, for example, we have challenges of AI governance, climate response, hybrid work models. You know, there’s no cultural precedent for the many things that we’re encountering on a on a daily basis. And as leaders, it creates this incredible tension for us to be able to adapt and to be able to adapt quickly. So therefore, merely adapting what were once existing frameworks is totally insufficient. So how do we then, you know, how do we then, as leaders, how do we generate new frameworks that are entirely different to what we’ve been used to? So within that context, and I also talk about the fact that, you know, we as leaders need to be agile thinkers and agile leaders. The Chinese concept of zhongyong, which is the middle way and the Roman ideal of Concordia harmony through difference, both point to this. How can I say true? I guess true harmony isn’t about blending until differences disappear, but about maintaining tension creatively. And that creates something new, something unprecedented. That’s what modern complexity demands. But not cultural chameleons, but cultural alchemists now trying to get that point across are trying to develop that within a leader, within a coaching context isn’t easy. But we work towards it. Karishma.

Karishma  Agarwal: Lovely. So I can see that you you know, you write about combining a compound identity yourself that is coherent because it synthesizes multiple cultural roots. So as an executive coach, how do you help clients who feel fragmented or split between cultural identities and move towards that kind of integrated, compound sense of self?

Dr. Max Caruso: You know, many clients, many clients come to me feeling like that. They’re they’re imposters to some degree. Sometimes they feel fake, you know, in the boardroom, they’re like strangers. Perhaps if they’re having a dinner in Shanghai. So the breakthrough comes when we reframe this, and that’s an important aspect as well, the concept of reframing. We reframe this not not as a fragmentation, but as a raw material for synthesis, if that makes sense. So we use what I call an and continuing to develop the concept of resonance mapping. I have clients who identify their core values or principles from each cultural sphere that they feel might be authentically true to them, not just the stereotypes, but their lived truths. And I’ve mentioned this a few times, haven’t I? The concept of a lived truth. So a client might name, for example, this could be me, you know, an Italian bella figura, which is the art of making a good impression. Whereas, you know, alongside what the Chinese might call mianzi, which is face or social capital. So therefore, recognizing that they’re not necessarily the same, but they vibrate at similar frequencies. So then when we come to that realization, we potentially explore, so what unique leadership styles emerge when these principles combine.

Dr. Max Caruso: And you can see again, this, this, this thinking process of combining thoughts, principles, ideas, experiences to give some sort of concrete idea to that, you know, how does a Roman respect for direct debate in which a Chinese reverence for harmony as an example. So the goal then is an integration. We talk about integration a lot, don’t we? But that suggests that we dissolve, that we are dissolving boundaries when we integrate, rather than having the idea of rather than dissolving boundaries. What about we create a coherent composition? So like a musical chord, for example, individual notes might remain distinct, yet create richer harmony together. And again, you know that that concept of resonance, harmony, things coming together rather than breaking them apart or dissolving boundaries is really important. So the the client potentially might stop asking, you know, which version of me should I be here? And don’t we ask that of ourselves? We often speak of the fact that we are a particular person at work. Then the real person at home. Well, no. We look towards, you know, authenticity. So who should I be here? Well, how can my compound self create true value here? How can I, in thinking in this way, be my authentic true self? Karishma.

Karishma  Agarwal: Wow. Now coming up to the end of our podcast, I am really, really interested in knowing you are an educator, a thought leader, and now an executive coach as we talk through it, if you could instill one principle of ancient resonance or transcultural synthesis like we’ve been talking about today into the next generation of leaders, what would it be and how can organizations, not just individuals, cultivate this city?

Dr. Max Caruso: Okay, again, you know, we live in a world that is so complex and ever changing. And I think this, this idea or these ideas can be of real benefit, I think, to to the new generation of leaders coming through who perhaps are a bit more agile and adaptable than than, you know, we who have been I guess so. I guess I would think about the concept of seeking resonance and not replication, because replication we know isn’t working necessarily. So we don’t try to transplant best practices across cultures, which is what we try tried to do often. So we listen for that underlying frequency, that shared idea of human challenges around dignity, belonging and purpose, and therefore creating a locally resonant solution. Or so you know, what does that mean for organizations? I guess it means moving beyond diversity quotas, for example, to designing what I call resonance architectures. And there’s potentially three concrete steps around that. So again, I’ve done quite a bit of thinking around this idea. So the the idea of creating ritualized spaces for cognitive friction. And we talked about this earlier, that idea of cognitive friction where regular forums where conflicting cultural logics are not just tolerated, but deliberately juxtaposed under skilled facilitation. That’s one particular way we can particularly move forward. Then the idea of of measure synthesis, not just representation we do here. We track how many initiatives or products or strategies genuinely emerge from cross-cultural Collaboration rather than just checking diversity boxes.

Dr. Max Caruso: You can see the difference here, right? Promotion based on compound leadership. I mentioned that earlier. That is rewarding leaders who demonstrate the ability to generate novel solutions from cultural confluence, not just those who excel in the single cultural framework. Now that can that can be adapted anywhere. If we think about culture, we often think about Western culture, eastern culture, in culture, English culture, and so on. But within any context, you know, take China for example. Here I am in Shanghai or Shanghai is distinctly different. I can tell you to Yunnan province, for example, or to Hefei. So within China, such a huge country, the concept of Chinese and Chinese culture takes different meanings depending on where you come from. But this idea, I think of cross-cultural collaboration is is really important. And that idea of basic promotion on compound leadership that doesn’t just work within the context of a single Culture is really important. The most innovative organizations, I guess, of the 21st century, and we are well and truly in the 21st century now, aren’t we? You know, there won’t be those the most diverse teams, but those that can transform diversity into generative synthesis. So using the diversity within rather than just having diversity. So they therefore the whole become just a greater than but a different from the sum of its parts. And that’s where I think Karishma ancient resonance might meet the future of leadership creation.

Karishma  Agarwal: Wow, that was amazing. I can really, really see how much thought you have put into your perspectives. And no wonder that we just talked about calling you a thought leader. That’s lovely. I’m so glad that I was able to speak to you on a personal level and as a professional as well. So it was a wonderful experience talking with you today, Doctor Matt.

Dr. Max Caruso: Thank you. It’s my absolute pleasure. And you know, as, as a, as an educator and, yes, as a thought leader we owe it to the generations that are coming after us. We we owe we owe them a legacy of of hope. And positive thought. As I say, we all know our world at the moment is, is is in a great deal of flux. So having hope I think is really important. So if I can, if I can just help a little bit in my, in my way, then I’m very happy.

Karishma  Agarwal: Definitely. I’m sure there’s going to be reflected. Thank you so much. Brilliant. I hope you have a great day ahead. Doctor Matt.

Dr. Max Caruso: Thank you so much and have a lovely day.

Karishma  Agarwal: Thank you so much.

Dr. Max Caruso: Thank you. Bye bye.

Karishma  Agarwal: Bye. Thank you, thank you. The immensely thanked doctor Max for joining us. It’s been a pleasure speaking with him. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to the CIO today podcast. This is Karishma signing off. Until next time.